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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Akaguma wrote:

About Matsuura... I know that 松浦 is usually supposed to be read Matsuura, but I always thought that in the case of this very family of Hizen province, 松浦 was contracted in Matsura (thus eliding a "u").
The "Matsura" and "Matsuura" spellings show up both ways in various publications. I think I mentioned it before, but one of my wife's good friends is a descendent of one of the branch or collateral families belonging to this famous clan. I believe she spells her family name "Matsura". Unfortunately, she doesn’t get special privileges when she goes back to Hirado at the museum or at the castle!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
DATE TERUMUNE (1543-1585), Date Masamune's father, his expansion of Date power brought conflict with the neighboring Ashina and Hatekayama. Kidnapped and killed by the Hatakeyama from a meeting to discuss peace.

The banners are from a Rekishi Gunzo illustration of Date banners. All banners above would be used by Date Masamune, I assume during the early stages, Masamune would add the gold disc on the dark blue nobori (below) during the Korean invasion.

DATE MASAMUNE (1566-1636) - The formidable One-eyed Dragon of the north.

NOTE: In response to another forum that misunderstood that the gold disc on blue nobori were only used in Korea. The gold disc on blue nobori would become THE Date nobori from then on.


DATE SASHIMONO

Masamune's banners have appeared in many books as often as those of Uesugi Kenshin, which have many similarities, in the nobori, sashimono and the use of a lovebirds mon. The complete set appears in color plates in at least two Rekishi Gunzo books with an entire chapter of contemporary illustration of Date banners. The horo is described in the Killer Katana book. In 'Samurai Warfare' a color plate shows Masamune's general Shiroishi Munekane with a large blue sashimono. The blue sashimono also appear in a Rekishi Gunzo color plate of Date mounted samurai at the battle of Hitotori Bridge. The other sashimono are worn by mannequins depicting Date troops in a life-size diorama of the same battle. The teppo ashigaru triple sashimono appear in Turnbull's 'Samurai Warriors'.

MASAMUNE'S TSUKAIBAN Actual size detail from Descending Komatsuyama.


DATE HIDEMUNE (1591-1658), Masamune's son who would receive the fief of Uwajima on Shikoku Island in 1614. Accompanied his father on the Osaka Campaign.

The banners appear on 'O Uma-jirushi' and described in The Sourcebook.

DATE SHIGEZANE (1568-1646)- Distinguished himself at the Battle of Hitotori Bridge and fought at Kooriyama and Sukagawa. At the battle of Suriagehara against the Ashina Date Masamune's vanguard was being overwhelmed when Shigezane's men moved forward to plug the hole in the front line. Shigezane would also take part in the Osaka campaign.

The set is from the book of 100 heraldry set. Sashimono #2 is from Brian Bradford's 'Date's Battles'. In a Gakken book of daimyo armour Shigezane's armour is displayed with his personal sashimono.[img][/img]


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excellent work!

Just a little question: were the great standards and the lesser standards (o uma jirushi/ ko uma jirushi) "restricted" to daimyo's of higher income, with lesser daimyo only using nobori?

a strange question perhaps? though i remember reading it in a book somewhere...

André
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ogami Itto wrote:
Excellent work!
Just a little question: were the great standards and the lesser standards (o uma jirushi/ ko uma jirushi) "restricted" to daimyo's of higher income, with lesser daimyo only using nobori?
André


A 'captain' or 'lieutenant' in a daimyo's army COULD have his own uma-jirushi. Ii Naomasa's vanguard commander Kimata Morikatsu who was not a daimyo had his own uma-jirushi and his men wore flags with the Morikatsu mon rather than the mon of their daimyo Naomasa. In the Matsuura scroll even teppo tai had their own uma-jirushi.

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KATAKURA KAGETSUNA (1557-1615) - One of Date Masamune's chief retainers. He distinguished himself at the battles of Hitotori Bridge and Suriagehara, and blocked Uesugi Kagekatsu during the Sekigahara campaign.
KATAKURA SHIGETSUNA (1585-1659) - Kagetsuna's son and successor. During the Osaka Campaign Shigetsuna led the Date vanguard at Domyoji. At the battle of Tennoji he took five heads.

The nobori and photos and illustrations of Kagetsuna's temple bell standard and sashimono appear in Rekishi Gunzo books. A very nice color plate of him with personal sashimono appear in Turnbull's 'Samurai Warfare'. In the Osaka screen the white nobori, red fukinuki, and black horo can seen following Kagetsuna identified by his sashimono. The black ko uma-jirushi appear alongside the O uma-jirushi in the Katakura Shiroishi Castle Folding screen, which show what I think are numerous standards of Katakura vassals.


Below are just a few samples of the standards of Kagetsuna's vassals displayed on the Katakura screen.

I would like to know what the 3d uma-jirushi is supposed to depict. Could they be 'tokkuri', sake flasks?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
i remember reading it in a book somewhere...


I found the source in question, the samurai sourcebook page 53 under Kuroda Tadayuki. It says that by Tadayuki's time, the Kuroda had acquired a great and a lesser standard. But this confused me since his grandfather Yoshitaka already had a uma jirushi?

Could this perhaps mean that the uma jirushi was awarded by daimyo to their retainers, that the Kuroda was rewarded with the uma jirushi by their lord Tokugawa Ieyasu, perhaps because of their succesfull participation in Sekigahara?

Quote:
The Tokugawa vanguard, the Ii red Devils as an example. About 200 men, where I've sorted out about 5 set of banners. Daimyo Ii Naomasa had his own set. His vanguard commander Kimata Morikatsu had his own. There were at least three other Ii contingents each with their own distinct sets, where the sashimono displayed their commander's 'mon' and not of their daimyo Naomasa.


I wonder how they could separate friend from foe with that much different heraldry on display? Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In examples I've posted, Uma-jirushi could be passed down from father to son, OR sons could have their own uma-jirushi, separate from their father's, Or the father's uma-jirushi replaced by one given by the lord they are serving. An uma-jirushi could become a lesser standard at a later date when a 'greater' standard appeared later.

Armies had 'officers' responsible for flags, the 'Hata Bugyo'. Soldiers were taught to recognize flags of friends and foes. Flags could 'evolve' as a daimyo rose in rank and power, the SETS of banners may even change with new banners being added for new 'units' as a victorious army grew in size from one campaign to another.

Most of what I've posted here reflected the 'final' form, but I've included a few banners that had 'disappeared' at an earlier date. Hideyoshi's banners would have been different from when he served Oda Nobunaga, to Shizugatake, to when Hideyori 'inherited' them. Many of his own generals' banners going through the same evolution.

In Date Masamune's army, there were at least 27 Date 'generals' that I know of. One of his general's Katakura Kagetsuna, there COULD be at least 34 sets of vassal banners!
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SATAKE YOSHISHIGE (1547-1612) - The aggressive lord of Hitachi, who was in constant wars with his neighbors like the Ashina, the Hojo and Date Masamune. The Satake made up the largest contingent in an allied army that attacked Date Masamune at the Battle of Hitotori Bridge. The Satake's withdrawal from the battle weakened the allied army, causing a general withdrawal. A hardened veteran of many battles, Yoshishige was nicknamed Oni Yoshishige (Devil Yoshishige).
SATAKE YOSHINOBU (1570-1633) - Yoshishige's son and succesor. He joined Toyotomi Hideyoshi in laying siege to Odawara in 1590. During the Osaka campaign the Satake and the Date would be allies serving Tokugawa Ieyasu. The Satake would distinguish themselves at the Battle of Imafuku 1614. The Satake vanguard suffered heavy casualties when attacked by Osaka generals Kimura Shigenari and Goto Mototsugu. The Satake held on to Imafuku until reinforced by Uesugi Kagekatsu. Satake Yoshinobu would take up position in the siege lines to the east with Satake artllery bombarding Osaka castle.

Satake heraldry appears in O Uma-jirushi and appears often in heraldry books.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for clearing up my confusion!

Researching samurai heraldry sure can be very confusing, but thats part of the fun! Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ogami Itto wrote:
Thanks for clearing up my confusion!
Researching samurai heraldry sure can be very confusing, but thats part of the fun! Smile


I would not want to be a Hata Bugyo, but I fear I may have been one in an earlier life. Just Kidding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Soma of Mutsu, one of the Date's frequent opponents on the battlefield, in perhaps as many as 30 battles in 50 or so years. Often allied with others in their battles with the Date. In 1589 Soma Yoshitane allied with the Ashina, but was defeated by Date Masamune. Yoshitane was later deprived of his territory by Tokugawa Ieyasu when he failed to show up for the Battle of Sekigahara.

The nobori and sashimono are from Brian Bradford's 'Date's Battles'. The beautiful uma-jirushi from the '100' heraldry set book. In a Gakken book of daimyo armour a photo show the actual uma-jirushi displayed with Yoshitane's armour.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or you might become one in you next life Twisted Evil

Btw, about the Kuroda and Matsuura Shigenobu's heraldry, did they use these flags in korea?

EDIT: I forgot to clarify Smile , what i meant is since you mentioned that the sets of heraldry COULD change from time to time, would that mean that the heraldry for the above may have changed, so only parts of their depicted heraldry were in use in korea?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
One of his general's Katakura Kagetsuna, there COULD be at least 34 sets of banners!


Shocked

That is all.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Akita Sanesue, clashed with the Nanbu. Served Toyotomi Hideyoshi during the Odawara Campaign and Invasion of Korea. Supported Tokugawa Ieyasu during the Sekigahara Campaign, but unable to lead the army himself due to illness and had to recall the army he sent when his son wanted to join Ishida Mitsunari's cause. Sanesue led 700 men during the Osaka campaign, taking up position in the center of the siege lines to the east of Osaka castle during the Winter Campaign. At the Battle of Tennoji Sanesue led 1,000 men in the vanguard of Ieyasu's left flank. Fighting alongside the army of Date Masamune, the Akita clashed with Sanada Yukimura.

Sanesue's white banners appear in Rekishi Gunzo's '118 Daimyo'. The rest appear in 'O Uma-jirushi'.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matsuura Shigenobu's complete set is described by Turnbull as being used in Korea. Most of Kuroda Nagamasa's banners have been illustrated as being in Korea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Nanbu, one of the most powerful clans in the north. Clashed with the Akita in 1550 and the rebellion of the Oura (Tsugaru) in 1581. Nanbu Nobunao submitted to Toyotomi Hideyoshi and helped defeat the last independent daimyo Kunoe Masazane in 1591.

Nobunao's son Toshinao supported Tokugawa Ieyasu during the Sekigahara Campaign, joining Date Masamune and Mogami Yoshiaki to contain Uesugi Kagekatsu. During the Osaka Winter Campaign Toshinao took up position across from the Sanada maru, beside the Hiranogawa.

Toshinao's banners are described in The Sourcebook. Color plates of Nanbu banners appear in two Rekishi Gunzo books. Nanbu nobori look more like uma-jirushi.

TOZAWA MORIYASU was a retainer of the Nanbu family, keeper of Kakunodate castle in Dewa.
TOZAWA MASAMORI (1585-1648) - Son of Moriyasu, sided with Tokugawa Ieyasu during the Sekigahara campaign.

Turnbull's descriptions in The Sourcebook and in Osprey's 'Samurai Heraldry' are that the Tozawa red disc are on blue ground. Different versions appear in O Uma-jirushi with the red disc on white.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Continuing the theme of 'northern' daimyo:

Tsugaru Tamenobu, a former vassal of the Nanbu who rebelled in 1581. Served Toyotomi Hideyoshi during the Odawara Campaign. Supported Tokugawa Ieyasu during the Sekigahara Campaign.

The white O Uma-jirushi with black swastika appear in Rekishi Gunzo's '118 Daimyo' and a photo of the damaged flag is in Turnbull's 'The Book of the Samurai'. The rest appear in 'O Uma-jirushi' and described in the Sourcebook. Tsugaru troops led by Nobuhira appear in a color plate in Osprey's 'Samurai Heraldry'.

The sashimono is described with a gold swastika in the Sourcebook and in the color plate in 'Samurai Heraldry'. The sashimono swastika is white in 'O Uma-jirushi'.

The huge shakujo O uma-jirushi is one of my favorites.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:

Matsuura Shigenobu's complete set is described by Turnbull as being used in Korea. Most of Kuroda Nagamasa's banners have been illustrated as being in Korea. I haven't come across the 'gold tree' yet as being in Korea.


So they were used in korea? nice Very Happy

recently, i've been very interested in the imjin war again, this time trying to find the heraldry of the samurai (also trying to identify the samurai themselves) participating in the war and also on the chinese/korean side.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, man... Wow... I don't know what to say, you're my hero. This is the kind of information I always look for. Can't believe I've actually missed it until now!

This has either to become a book or a front-piece article on this site. Or both.
This will assist me so much whenever I make samurai illustrations. Thank you for sharing this and keep up the awesome work!
Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, beautiful work. john
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yoshitoshi wrote:
This has either to become a book or a front-piece article on this site. Or both.


Guess Kitsuno should *seriously* think about a
joint-venture SA/Emmanuel.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
Yoshitoshi wrote:
This has either to become a book or a front-piece article on this site. Or both.


Guess Kitsuno should *seriously* think about a
joint-venture SA/Emmanuel.


Forum member JLBadgley is working on a totally new homepage for the samurai archives, and it looks great so far - if I do implement the new look, I'll be a lot more comfortable and motivated about really moving forward with all of the ideas and ventures I've been thinking about.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Great to know. Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mogami Yoshiaki, a capable leader who ruled a large area in Dewa province, clashing with the Date and the Uesugi. During the Sekigahara campaign Yoshiaki and Date Masamune joined forces to contain Uesugi Kagekatsu.

Yoshiaki's banners appear in several Rekishi Gunzo books. The sashimono is based on written description.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey Evalerio, you wouldn't happen to have extensive information on the heraldry used by any of the samurai participating in the battle of Pyokje?

Those listed in a Turnbull's 'Samurai Invasion: Japan's Korean War 1592-1598':

Kobayakawa Takakage
Môri Hidekane
Chikushi Hirokado
Môri Motoyasu
Inoue Kagesada
Awaya Kagenao
Tachibana Muneshige
Takahashi Munemasu
Jûji Den'emon

I'm making a picture of the battle in question. Any help would be greatly appriciated. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yoshitoshi, I am sorting out contingents in the Korean Invasion as I am also working on illustrations of scenes from the Korean Invasion. I'll get back to you with what I have on the list you've given.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on color plates on Rekishi Gunzo books.




White Kobayakawa nobori and the red Mori nobori appear in Rekishi Gunzo's '118 Daimyo' book. White nobori would be Takakage's personal nobori while the red Mori nobori were flown by other Mori family members. Rekishi Gunzo's color plate of the siege of Fushimi castle show large numbers of the red Mori nobori.

The red nobori with three Kobayakawa mon and the sashimono appear in a color plate in Osprey's 'Japanese Castles', depicting Kobayakawa troops assaulting Fushimi castle. Osprey plate show the red nobori with three Kobayakawa mon used by different companies and weapons squads. Red samurai sashimono with three mon are worn by high 'ranking' samurai including Kobayakawa Hideaki. The white sashimono are worn by samurai and ashigaru infantry spearmen. The red ashigaru sashimono are worn by missile troops.


The nobori and uma-jirushi appear in Rekishi Gunzo's '118 Daimyo' book. The sashimono appear in Rekishi Gunzo color plates worn by both samurai and ashigaru. The complete set can be seen in the Sekigahara screen.
UPDATE: I found the source for the more colorful Kobayakawa Hideaki nobori with two red mon, a different Sekigahara screen where a second colorful nobori appears. This has been added here. While the nobori with crossed sickles appear in large numbers, there is only one each of the two colorful nobori. A second sashimono with the Kobayakawa mon in black has also been added, again from Sekigahara screens.

Mori Hidemoto, Motonari's grandson and his 4th son Mori Motokiyo's eldest. Fought his first battle against the Hojo and served in Korea. At Sekigahara he was stationed at Mt. Nangu with 15,000 men, threatening Tokugawa Ieyasu's rear, but was prevented from taking part in the battle by Kikkawa Hiroie's contingent blocking his path.

The nobori with three discs, tsukaiban horo and black samurai sashimono are described in The Samurai Sourcebook. The rest appear in 'O Uma-jirushi' where the Great Standard described in the Sourcebook is shown as a nobori type.

More heraldry sets of the Mori from Aki will be added in this section. The Mori appear to favor banners of white and/or red.


Based on Rekishi Gunzo books.
NOTE:The different 'types' of banners are not in scale to one another. Standard bearer was added to show the enormous size of the uma-jirushi.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Awesome, hope I'll get to see your work too. If and when I finish my picture(or pictures) I'll share them on these boards. Smile

And thanks a lot in advance.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice work you have here, do you also plan on making some for Toyotomi Hideyoshi?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu and Takeda Shingen are often illustrated so I haven't posted them yet.

For Hideyoshi, probably as 'dull' as Ieyasu's white banners, Wink Hideyoshi will be posted at a later date. For now, try to imagine an army in GOLD! Nobori, horo (mounted bodyguards) and sashimono (serrated for tsukaiban, standard ones for samurai) ALL in plain GOLD! 3d objects for uma-jirushi of 3d gold fan over a red fukinuki and a 3d golden gourd over a gold flag.
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